General discussion and observations about life in these United States. Topics include politics, economics, and general commentary.


So, I am reading my usual daily dose of Politico, and I come across a blog article by Glenn Thrush talking about how Ron Paul is backing up the Texas governor in saying that succeeding from the USA is an American thing to do. He talks about how the original 13 colonies succeeded from England and all that jazz. Here is the Paul's direct quote: "it is very American to talk about secession. That's how we came in being. Thirteen colonies seceded from the British and established a new country. So secession is a very much American principle.

While I am not going to go down the road of it being treasonous to talk about succeeding from the Union, I really think this is just political posturing. In the infamous words of George W. Bush, "That is the last time I will be out Texaned." In Texas there has always been a healthy independent spirit, and I don't think either the governor or Mr. Paul have anything to lose by bringing this topic up. Quite simply it scores serious points with the base of the party and everyone else just kind scratches their head and moves on.

What I am truly interested in is the results of Texas succeeding from the Union. It sounds cool and all, but has anyone thought through the actual ramifications of this? From the US side, you would lose a major chuck of your economy, and given that Texas is a donor state, giving more to the federal government then was returned, the US would also take a fiscal hit there. It is often stated that Austin, which is the capital of Texas, is a blue patch in a sea of red, would they just go along? Could the new Republic of Texas face an immediate internal threat from Austin?

From the Texas perspective, you have to think about what would be lost. First and foremost, all military protection would cease. All assets would be pulled out, so there goes Fort Hood, Fort Bliss and the 8 Air Force bases in TX. Several areas of TX would be economically devastated by the closing of these bases. Of course with little homegrown military and scant technology, Texas would make a big, fat, juicy target for Mexico. I imagine it would take them all of a few months to mount a serious attack. Other things that would be lost if Texas succeeded include: all NASA facilities, major funding for the public universities, ANY border protection, transportation funding, social security, medicare and any other government program support. My guess is that to get some semblance of military up and running, even for just basic defense, there would immediately have to be compulsory military service and about 50-60% tax rates. Sounds worth leaving the USA to me.

So, all stupid political rhetoric aside, good luck with that. I won't plan on seeing an independent Texas ANYTIME in my life.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Apr 22, 2009

From the Texas perspective, you have to think about what would be lost. First and foremost, all military protection would cease. All assets would be pulled out, so there goes Fort Hood, Fort Bliss and the 8 Air Force bases in TX. Several areas of TX would be economically devastated by the closing of these bases. Of course with little homegrown military and scant technology, Texas would make a big, fat, juicy target for Mexico. I imagine it would take them all of a few months to mount a serious attack. Other things that would be lost if Texas succeeded include: all NASA facilities, major funding for the public universities, ANY border protection, transportation funding, social security, medicare and any other government program support. My guess is that to get some semblance of military up and running, even for just basic defense, there would immediately have to be compulsory military service and about 50-60% tax rates. Sounds worth leaving the USA to me.

This also assumes that the rest of the US would sit idly by while a state secedes which is unlikely, remember what happened the last time states attempted to secede?  The difference between then and now is that we have a well funded (more so than the militias in Texas anyway) US military.  Do you think any of the Texas militias could actually stand up to the US military?  I doubt it.  So even if Texas did secede it wouldn't last long.

I did read an article that claimed that Texas could split into 5 state which would send an additional 8 Senators to the US Senate, that certainly seems like a much more plausible solution for Texas, but still highly unlikely.

on Apr 22, 2009

The difference between then and now is that we have a well funded (more so than the militias in Texas anyway) US military. Do you think any of the Texas militias could actually stand up to the US military? I doubt it.

Think again, look how people were crying over the death of terrorists and imagin it happening right here in America. One kid gets caught in the crossfire and the president will be impeached for genocide.

on Apr 22, 2009

Think again, look how people were crying over the death of terrorists and imagin it happening right here in America. One kid gets caught in the crossfire and the president will be impeached for genocide.

Not when it was done quelling a rebellion.  Plus I would imagine that the president would give standing orders to not fire until fired upon so then it would be the militias fault and not the presidents.

Also I highly doubt there would be any exchange of fire at all.  When you see a bunch of tanks, air support, plus all the ground forces at the disposal of our military I have a feeling the militias would lay down their arms and surrender, even with our military stretched as thin as it is today.

on Apr 22, 2009

You forgot Fort Sam.

on Apr 22, 2009

Do you think any of the Texas militias could actually stand up to the US military? I doubt it.

I'm not sure, before long the US military is going to be so fearful shooting a foreign enemy (lawsuits, UN witch hunts,etc.) let alone fellow Americans. Hell nobody's shooting illegals invading our borders.

This rhetoric is just political posturing like TW suggested, nothing more. Texans have always, as a matter of pride, had an independent streak as well as a sense of self responsibility. The "yes we can's" will holler "no you won't" but that is just making noise for their side too. So big deal. Texans know what the deal is.

on Apr 22, 2009

Also I highly doubt there would be any exchange of fire at all. When you see a bunch of tanks, air support, plus all the ground forces at the disposal of our military I have a feeling the militias would lay down their arms and surrender, even with our military stretched as thin as it is today.

Are you saying that the national guard is that weak?

on Apr 22, 2009

Are you saying that the national guard is that weak?

Not at all, and I'm not calling the Texas Militias weak either merely outmatched.  Like if you were trying to play football and one team only had one player.  He may be the strongest player on the field but he is no match for 11 other guys. 

Plus the national guard is part of the US Military not the Texan militias.  Some might defect, as some in the rest of the US military would as well, to the Texan side if a conflict erupted but if they took US military property then once they are captured (and they would be captured) they would be tried and put to death for treason and if they didn't take US military equipment they would still be charged for going AWOL.

on Apr 22, 2009

 and given that Texas is a donor state, giving more to the federal government then was returned, the US would also take a fiscal hit there

"donar state" sure sounds a lot nicer to other states than saying its actually produces something.

And its the US parasites that would take a hit, not the US as a whole, that or the middle class because parasitism would not be eliminated.

From the Texas perspective, you have to think about what would be lost. First and foremost, all military protection would cease. All assets would be pulled out

Uh, NO, they STAY. Thats kinda the point, a major part of the US military is based in texas.

 

Texa is both an economic producer and a military power house, it is just a better state than the others, a cut beyond. Just like germany and england are miles beyond some of the lesser members of the EU. There is strength in unity, but there is also weakness in it, and right now the weakness is the horrible socialist in congress thretening to destroy us.

on Apr 22, 2009

Plus the national guard is part of the US Military not the Texan militias.

Last I checked the National Guard was under the control of the Governor. Remember how some liberal Governors threatened to keep thier people home and not send them to Iraq? Texas Air National Guard has the same planes as the Air Force, the Texas National Guard has the same tanks and weapons as the Army. The Governor has the right to control them and the President has to get their permission to use them. They are the front line of the state militia.

If Texas became a nation and nationalized the oil fields the rest of the nation would be in a hurt locker. Keep in mind that most of the national oil reserves are stored in Texas so the 60 day national supply would not last 60 days. Did you like spending 5 dollars a gallon? Trust me that will become a fond faded memory.

on Apr 23, 2009

Last I checked the National Guard was under the control of the Governor.

But who pays for the National Guard?  Do the states or does the federal government?  If it's the states then fine the national guard in Texas becomes the front lines of the texas militia.  I still doubt they would stand much of a chance against the entire US military and the other 49 states National Guard units.  Again even if they are the strongest military units they are severly outnumbered and they would have to concern themselves with possible invasions from Mexico as well as defending against the US military.  Fighting a war on two fronts when your outnumbered is a losing strategy.

If Texas became a nation and nationalized the oil fields the rest of the nation would be in a hurt locker. Keep in mind that most of the national oil reserves are stored in Texas so the 60 day national supply would not last 60 days. Did you like spending 5 dollars a gallon? Trust me that will become a fond faded memory.

Of course there would be massive impacts to the other 49 states, I don't deny that, I just don't think a Texan secession would last very long so the impact would be minimal.

Now if more states joined Texas then the entire story would change.

on Apr 23, 2009

Again even if they are the strongest military units they are severly outnumbered and they would have to concern themselves with possible invasions from Mexico as well as defending against the US military.

Yes... because if texas seceeds than the other 49 states will all unilaterally band togather against it AND mexico will as well! NOT.

Many states would not want to fight texas at all, some will seceed with it, and mexico will stay safely away, because if it invades the warring us states are liable to pronounce a truce and gang up on it.

on Apr 23, 2009

I never had any problem with the concept of one state (or province) separating from the rest of the country. I support Quebec's separation, and if Texas feels like it, then who is in their right to tell them what to do with their territory?

However, I have no idea how "american" separation is. Last time it happened, it ended badly.

on Apr 23, 2009

there was a lot more involved in the first civil war. well, first american civil war...

the biritish-american civil war (aka, the independance war) ended quite well for everyone involved.

on Apr 23, 2009

Yes... because if texas seceeds than the other 49 states will all unilaterally band togather against it AND mexico will as well! NOT.

Sure some of the states won't want to commit their national guard troops to the battle but the US Military forces don't need to approval of the states to go in, just an order from the president.  That alone would be an overwhelming force for Texas to handle.  Mexico may take the opportunity to take Texas back from the US or the drug cartels may move in and wreak havoc in Texas since the US federal government will no longer be patroling the Texan border.

Many states would not want to fight texas at all, some will seceed with it, and mexico will stay safely away, because if it invades the warring us states are liable to pronounce a truce and gang up on it.

And if more states join Texas I said that the entire scenario would change dramatically.  The more states that join the harder the fight will be but I still maintain that the US Military will be stronger than any force the seceding states could muster, unless a strong majority of the country joins Texas, but I just don't see that happening.

if Texas feels like it, then who is in their right to tell them what to do with their territory?

The President of the US and congress may not agree with this, especially since there is a fair amount of Federal land (ie military bases, etc) in Texas so it isn't wholly it's own territory.

Last time it happened, it ended badly

And my assertion is that if it was just Texas the US military would be able to end the conflict with little bloodshed.  If more states joined in then it would end badly again and I'm not sure who would come out on top.

on Apr 23, 2009

From the Texas perspective, you have to think about what would be lost. First and foremost, all military protection would cease....Of course with little homegrown military and scant technology, Texas would make a big, fat, juicy target for Mexico.

They could spend the money that would've gone to the government on defence. There, problem solved.

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