So you're basically saying that yes, the children should be punished for what their parents have done? Either you do think children should be punished for their parent's sins, or you don't.

Despicable isn't it, actually coming across someone who exposes your utter contempt for innocent human life (sorry, innocent palestinian life)?

That they're not so stupid as to lose what support they currently have while at the same time massively increasing their enemies? To end up argueing that Israel are restrained by not committing genocide+acting like the Nazi's really does indicate just how bad they currently are!

Hamas: Aims to maximise civilian casualties, uses it's own civilians as shields

Israel: Doesn't seem to care how many civilians die in their pusuit of Hamas, and will quite happily bomb schools (and other civilian buildings)

I'd say both are down there in the gutter. It's hypocritical to decry Hamas's killing of civilians yet in the same breath defend Israel's killing. Israel may not go out of their way to kill civilians, but they don't seem to try to not kill them either.

that's not true.  Where sre you getting your information? 

Israel dropped leaflets warning the people of Gaza they were coming giving the innocents time to vacate or not send their kids near the places where Hamas has put their weapons...like schools and the hospitals. 

So bombing schools in this case is necessary if you're going after the cache of weapons.  But you left off the part about the pre-warning...

how convenient. 

I'm going to address a lot of this later; but I just have a couple questions: which side actually fired the first shot, here? And why?

Hamas' actions are based in pure hatred and intolerance, while Israel's are based on self-defense. Is it always wrong to defend yourself against open-faced, unprovoked aggression? Or is aggression permissable only when you're a non-Western(ized) nation?

its okay for you to launch multiple rockets into another country and all the should do is sit there and take it.... gesh where have you been?

Heh...yeah, that seems to be the consensus.

From Hama's website.

of course......why didn't I think of that? 

I guess the next question is ......"do you always believe what the evil, murderous side tells you?" 

Yes, they do; why? Because "the evil, murderous side" isn't America or its allies.

Hm... oddly enough the Germans were so stupid.

And the Sudanese government is so stupid too, and where exactly is the lack of support and the increase in their enemies?

Saddam killed millions and nobody protested.

Sudan kills hundreds of thousands and nobody protests.

But you seem to think that Israel wants to do the same and doesn't do it because it would increase the number of enemies? Those strategies never increase the number of enemies for those who use them. Saddam is still a celebrated hero in the Arab world.

Perhaps you don't understand how the middle east works.

If you are a violent brutal dictator and murder hundreds of thousands, people will love you. That's how it works.

It even works in the west, too.

Ask your average liberal how much time he spent in protests against Saddam in the 80s and 90s and how much time he spent in protests against Israel or Sudan. You will likely find that he spent the most time protesting Israel, might have attended one or two protests against Sudan, but none against Saddam.

The more you murder, the more support you have; among Arabs, among western liberals, and in the UN.

They do. They really do.

Whatever the IDF or the Israeli government says is dismissed as propaganda.

And whatever Hamas say is fact.

That's how the media worked, that's how liberals work.

It seems you do. That is everything the Israeli's say is taken as gospel and can't possibly be wrong. Anything the palestinians say is automatically false (and anyone who dares question anything the Israelis say or do is a crazy liberal who loves Hamas and hates Israel).

Those who are actually able to think for themselves will realise that both sides have good cause to lie - you can see this with the two sides 'statements' on the cease-fire. Israel (as expected, no matter how badly things had gone) declared it's operation a success, with all of it's aims met. Hamas (again, as expected) declared Israel's operation a failure, that failed to meet it's aims.

What Israel says tends to be supported by video evidence. You can also go there and see for yourself. For some reason Israel always needs evidence, because many people tend to disregard anything said by middle-eastern Jews as lies.

I myself found Israelis to be rude, quick-tempered, and extremely chauvinistic. But they didn't lie. Your experience with middle-eastern Jews could well be different.

Tell me, how many middle-eastern Jews do you know personally that you can make such blanket statements about Israel?

Why are you equating Hamas with the "Palestinians"?

You don't even realise that the majority of "Palestinians" also don't believe what Hamas say. (That is, incidentally, why Hamas have to throw people off rooftops to "convince" them.)

Yes, I do not believe what terrorist groups say.

And yes, I do believe what Israel says.

I do not believe that there is a reason to distrust middle-eastern Jews just because they are middle-eastern Jews.

But I do believe that there is a reason to distrust terrorists for the sole reason that they are terrorists.

And I do believe what "Palestinians" say. That's why I posted this article. with two videos of what "Palestinians" have to say about Hamas. I absolutely and without qualification believe it.

And when you see cause to lie, you see proof for a lie. Is that it? When there is smoke, there must be fire? And perhaps, if enough people repeat it as a fact that middle-eastern Jews lie, it will become accepted fact?

I accept your reason for believing that Israel is lying.

I believe that Hamas lie because they are terrorists, not because they have a reason to lie. An organisation that executes people who disagree with them by throwing them off rooftops is certainly not above lying.

Just watch the three videos and tell me whether you believe them or not. Two are "Palestinian", one is Israeli. Just feel free to explain why you don't believe the Israeli one (perhaps the IDF boobytrapped the Gaza school over the last few days just to shoot the video?) and whether you believe the two "Palestinian" videos.

It really freaks me out that Hamas have so much credibility among western idiots. The Arab world is MUCH MUCH smarter than western liberals. Unbelievable...

You would make a good propagandist for Hamas.  I am sure you can brush away all their atrocities in the name of some noble achievement (even tho none exist).

But I do agree with one point you make.  They are stupid.  They are actually trying to wage a humane and low colateral war, and win over world opinion.  Which the first, while noble, is fool hardy, the last is just plain stupid.  They will never win over world opinion.  So why try?

Besides, the only ones arguing that Israel is committing genocide, are those that are doing it themselves.  And while expected, the comparison to Nazis is abhorent and beneath contempt.  And could only be done by one so filled with hatred of Jews as to seek their erradication.  Why is beyond human and humane understanding.

I assume the comparison with the Nazis and Hitler is the purest of coincidence and has nothing to do with anti-Semitism (aka reminding Jews of what will happen if they continue behaving like this).

What about "Israel is behaving like Sudan"?

Still doesn't work. Sudan slaughtered 400,000 people and was never attacked by them.

And what about "Israel is like Saddam's Iraq"?

Still doesn't work. Saddam slaughtered millions and was not attacked by them either.

Perhaps we can compare Israel with Hamas?

Both killed hundreds of people.

The difference is that Hamas wasn't attacked by Israel or the PLO but tried to kill Israelis and PLO supporters anyway.

Doesn't really work, does it?

You seem to have missed my point. The people here seem to take everything the Israeli's say as automatically true, and everything the Palestinians say as automatically false. How many jews+palestinians I personally know has no relevance to that.

Oh dear, the Dr's put his foot in it again:

I assume you're saying rightwinger is so filled with hatred of Jews as to seek their erradication?

I'm not (that is, Hamas are palestinians, but not all palestinians are members of Hamas)

It's not as though you were the first to do it, and certainly won't be the last, but I'm getting so sick of people taking something I (or others) say, taking it out of context, twisting it's meaning, and somehow using that to say something completely different - it's gotten so bad I even did a minor version of it in my previous post to see if anyone would pick it up and adopt hypocritical outrage. Saying that I see reasons why both Hamas and Israel may want to lie is not the same as saying I think they are both definitely lying. One of them obviously is (since they're both saying pretty much polar opposites). I also think it likely that both of them are to some extent, but as to what I believe, I believe anything said by either side should be taken with a strong pinch of salt.

If I have some spare time I might, but not right now as I don't see it being of great relevance (now if I was saying that all palestinians love Hamas, or that Hamas has never done anything terrible, or that I don't believe anything any Israeli says, it might be relevant. However despite all of your numerous (and often desperate) attempts to pidgeon-hole me as a Hamas supporter, I don't support them). To paraphrase you, it really freaks me out that so many posters here are so narrow minded. The pitiful logic that seems to be used is: 'Not an Israeli supporter? -> Must be a Hamas supporter'